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Phoene
0
quote:

brightlight schreef op 27 april 2020 08:54:

[...]
Ik hoop dat dit een antwoord is op uw vraag.
BL
Dag BL,
Thx voor het antwoord. Het is inderdaad een antwoord op mijn vraag. Cijfers van het aantal cartridges van q4 zijn ook niet te vinden.
Phoene
fonsdesponsje
0
Een terugval is normaal maar daarna is het terug omhoog he en dan is dat spijtig aan de uitstappers.
b68er
0
Heb gisteren op canvas in een blik gezien dat Ceo (of woordvoerder) van Johnson en Johnson stelde dat ze vanaf augustus een tester hebben voor het covid virus...... J en J is 9.72 % eigenaar van Biocartis... Misschien toch wel enige waarheid in het Covid verhaal....

Lees mee en vond het toch de moeite om dit even te melden.

Heeft iemand het geheel gesprek gevolgd?
Phoene
0
quote:

b68er schreef op 28 april 2020 08:34:

Heb gisteren op canvas in een blik gezien dat Ceo (of woordvoerder) van Johnson en Johnson stelde dat ze vanaf augustus een tester hebben voor het covid virus...... J en J is 9.72 % eigenaar van Biocartis... Misschien toch wel enige waarheid in het Covid verhaal....

Lees mee en vond het toch de moeite om dit even te melden.

Heeft iemand het geheel gesprek gevolgd?
B68er,
Heb nog eens bekeken deze morgen en het ging over een vaccin en niet over een tester.
Dus niet over Biocartis maar J&J.
Phoene
Gijpie
0
Mannekes op canvas was de CEO van Janssens Fharmaceutica onderdeel van J & J die al talloze vaccin’s hebben ontwikkeld HIV , ebola , sars , enz . Heeft absoluut niks te maken met Biocartis . Die ontwikkelen alleen testen en dan voornamelijk oncologie. Bij hun test voor sepsis hebben ze gezien dat die ook Covid zou kunnen opsporen that’s it .
brightlight
1
quote:

Flatlander schreef op 27 april 2020 15:09:

BL
As we have discussed, the the quarterly and semiannual updates are always presented in a way that raise a lot of questions. But if nothing else they are consistent. No specific numbers of cartridges or consoles are ever provided in quarterly updates, just growth percentages. Also, as we have railed about in the past, some geographical breakdown would be immensely helpful in our understanding. Verrelst sometimes discusses the increasing movement toward front line POC use in the EU but at present we do not have numbers to understand the depth of this movement. I understand that the CRC offerings only recently (with the EU approval of MSI) were filled out to meet all the major medical advisory panel testing guidelines. Lung will need the gene fusion panel and several full diagnostic use EU approvals to meet the recommendations. Geographic breakdown information is needed to assess the traction as Idylla begins to move to the POC environment.

In the current pandemic we have no idea about the most important statistic. How much polymerase reagent does BCART have? How many typical manufacturing production days can be supported by the existing supply? and is the supply chain for future orders secure or are that at the mercy of current market supply-demand pressures? The majority of the COVID 19 tests are PCR and utilize the same reagents that governments around the world indicate are in extremely short supply. These are material facts that investors should have the right to know.

Regards FL

Regards
FL
FL
You are absolutely right about the reagent issue.

Uncertainty is the enemy of investor confidence. The smoke and mirrors game, which management has and still is playing, to me makes no sense at all. I don't see the added value of it. It is time they start taking their investors seriously and provide them with “real” information.

Let’s talk for a moment about the strategic business situation. You are way better than I am at assessing the medical side of things, so correct me whenever I am wrong.

The way I see it, there are three pillars of competitive advantage which Bcart still has compared to the competition in POC cancer testing: speed, accuracy, first mover advantage. The fourth and most important pillar is still missing, which is sufficient market penetration.

The accuracy advantage versus NGS, (which has a similar speed) will probably remain for a while longer, I suspect. No worries there, for the moment?

More worryingly, the competitors which do also have the speed (or will soon have it) also seem to have cancer tests. Cepheid appears to be making inroads in the cancer testing area. Qiagen already has KRAS, BRAF, RAS, EGFR tests. I don’t know about Roche. I also wonder which cancer tests are currently under development at these competitors? I can envision a scenario where the competitors with the much larger installed base tell their customers not to invest in Idylla and to wait for their own cancer tests under development. I don’t know if that is likely? I can also see a scenario where on the one hand Bcart is gaining market share through the tests to which they have exclusive rights, but on the other hand is giving up market share with the more generic tests, which now form the lion’s share of their sales (correct me if I am wrong). And if they do not lose market share, I suspect the pricing pressure will not be small. Supposing a Qiagen system and an Idylla are side by side in a lab and there is the choice to run a KRAS test on either system, then surely the cheapest test will be run.

Maybe there is space for all these players in the market, but how big will the remaining piece of the pie then be for Bcart, and will it be sufficient to get to break-even soon?

I think it is a matter of life or death for Bcart to get sufficient market penetration while they still have some advantage vis a vis their competitors (I am sure you will have mentioned this fact too, regularly in your posts). I suspect that, if what remains of Bcart’s advantages disappears before they get sufficient market penetration, they are toast. I read in one of your last posts that Qiagen (in early 2018) was throwing 200 million at developing a faster system. 200 million is more than Bcart's entire cash reserve for the next couple of years. Bcart is taking a knife to a gun fight. They urgently have to start thinking about growth numbers of 100% per annum for a couple of years in succession. Time is of the essence. No wonder Verrelst is throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it.

I often wonder if Bcart would not be better off by financially partnering with a much larger company (they can perhaps take their cue from the Galapagos model, or a variant thereof). If Bcart’s development partners (Amgen, BMS, Merck, Astra Zeneca, Exas, …) were also to become (serious) financial partners, then Bcart could also take a gun to the fight.

Let’s hope their partners don’t keep seeing Bcart as just another “delivery vehicle” for their products (the word was used in an Exas press conference).

To end with the glass half full, if Bcart gets anywhere near the growth rates that I believe are necessary, this represents of course an enormous opportunity for investors.

I am curious to know your opinion on these matters, especially where you stand on the knife/gun question.
BL
DRTVR
0
quote:

brightlight schreef op 28 april 2020 15:11:

[...]
FL
You are absolutely right about the reagent issue.

Uncertainty is the enemy of investor confidence. The smoke and mirrors game, which management has and still is playing, to me makes no sense at all. I don't see the added value of it. It is time they start taking their investors seriously and provide them with “real” information.

Let’s talk for a moment about the strategic business situation. You are way better than I am at assessing the medical side of things, so correct me whenever I am wrong.

The way I see it, there are three pillars of competitive advantage which Bcart still has compared to the competition in POC cancer testing: speed, accuracy, first mover advantage. The fourth and most important pillar is still missing, which is sufficient market penetration.

The accuracy advantage versus NGS, (which has a similar speed) will probably remain for a while longer, I suspect. No worries there, for the moment?

More worryingly, the competitors which do also have the speed (or will soon have it) also seem to have cancer tests. Cepheid appears to be making inroads in the cancer testing area. Qiagen already has KRAS, BRAF, RAS, EGFR tests. I don’t know about Roche. I also wonder which cancer tests are currently under development at these competitors? I can envision a scenario where the competitors with the much larger installed base tell their customers not to invest in Idylla and to wait for their own cancer tests under development. I don’t know if that is likely? I can also see a scenario where on the one hand Bcart is gaining market share through the tests to which they have exclusive rights, but on the other hand is giving up market share with the more generic tests, which now form the lion’s share of their sales (correct me if I am wrong). And if they do not lose market share, I suspect the pricing pressure will not be small. Supposing a Qiagen system and an Idylla are side by side in a lab and there is the choice to run a KRAS test on either system, then surely the cheapest test will be run.

Maybe there is space for all these players in the market, but how big will the remaining piece of the pie then be for Bcart, and will it be sufficient to get to break-even soon?

I think it is a matter of life or death for Bcart to get sufficient market penetration while they still have some advantage vis a vis their competitors (I am sure you will have mentioned this fact too, regularly in your posts). I suspect that, if what remains of Bcart’s advantages disappears before they get sufficient market penetration, they are toast. I read in one of your last posts that Qiagen (in early 2018) was throwing 200 million at developing a faster system. 200 million is more than Bcart's entire cash reserve for the next couple of years. Bcart is taking a knife to a gun fight. They urgently have to start thinking about growth numbers of 100% per annum for a couple of years in succession. Time is of the essence. No wonder Verrelst is throwing everything and the kitchen sink at it.

I often wonder if Bcart would not be better off by financially partnering with a much larger company (they can perhaps take their cue from the Galapagos model, or a variant thereof). If Bcart’s development partners (Amgen, BMS, Merck, Astra Zeneca, Exas, …) were also to become (serious) financial partners, then Bcart could also take a gun to the fight.

Let’s hope their partners don’t keep seeing Bcart as just another “delivery vehicle” for their products (the word was used in an Exas press conference).

To end with the glass half full, if Bcart gets anywhere near the growth rates that I believe are necessary, this represents of course an enormous opportunity for investors.

I am curious to know your opinion on these matters, especially where you stand on the knife/gun question.
BL

Hopelijk Flatlander niet getroffen door Corona.
Stockbrood
0
Ergens anders gevonden:

"
Vandaag toch een al bij al positief artikel gelezen in Beste Belegger van de vfb. Korte samenvatting.
De CEO ziet het volledig zitten en zegt dat de beleggers geduld moeten hebben.

De corona test is eerder een ondersteuning voor de sepsistest. Zo onderscheiden ze hun positief van andere bedrijven, waardoor er op intensieve zorgen sneller de juiste beslissingen kunnen genomen worden. Sepsis is de meest frequent waargenomen complicatie bij covid-19. De dokter kan zo sneller een inschatting maken en juiste zorg verlenen. Op termijn verlicht zo de druk op het ziekenhuis.

Door de coronacrisis verwacht Verrelst druk op de budgetten van de ziekenhuizen. Mogelijk zullen er vragen gesteld worden bij sommige heel dure kankerbehandelingen, wat goed nieuws is voor oncologietesten. De patiënt staat aan de kant van de snelle testen, de ziekenzorg zal volgen omdat dit nu eenmaal goedkoper is.

Cashburn, Verrelst wil met de omzet de marges doen groeien. De brutomarge moet beter, de kostcontrole moet beter EN we gaan ons meer inzetten op partnerprojecten, die deze kosten mee dragen. Door deze ingrepen gaat de cashburn veel trager en houden we het langer uit. Wanneer het evenwicht er is, spreekt hij zich niet over uit, maar de snelheid waarmee de cash uit het bedrijf gaat zal zakken.

Voor de forumleden die gokken op een overname:
Als publiek bedrijf loop je natuurlijk in de kijker. Iedereen kent onze cijfers, sterktes en zwaktes. Een lage marktwaarde helpt natuurlijk niet. We lopen dus een iets groter risico. Maar ik heb bij mijn komst naar Biocartis duidelijk gezegd dat ik niet gekomen ben om te verkopen (in zijn carrière verkocht Verrelst al met succes verschillende bedrijven, red.)Ik geloof in wat we doen en dat we iets moois aan het realiseren zijn. Zeker door onze onderwaardering kan het een goed moment zijn om in Biocartis te investeren.
"
brightlight
0
quote:

DRTVR schreef op 29 april 2020 20:11:

[...]

Hopelijk Flatlander niet getroffen door Corona.
Ik hoop het, want ik heb nog vragen voor hem :)

Terwijl ik met de problematiek van de competitive advantage van Bcart bezig was is me trouwens nog iets interessants opgevallen. Zowel Cepheid als Qiagen (rechtstreekse concurrenten van Bcart) zijn ondertussen reeds overgenomen door grotere spelers (Cepheid door Danaher, Qiagen door Thermofisher). Waarom zou dit niet kunnen gebeuren bij Bcart? Misschien minder goed nieuws voor beleggers met een lange termijn visie, maar op korte termijn toch niet te versmaden.
BL
brightlight
0
Stockbrood,
Mooi artikel. Mijn post van hierboven was al onderweg voor ik het artikel in de VFB las. Hoe groot kan toeval zijn?
BL
brightlight
0
Stockbrood,
is het zinvol het hele artikel te posten? Zo ja, denk je dat dat mogelijk is?
BL
brightlight
0
FL,
I don’t know if you noticed, but there seems to be a big discrepancy between the 2020 cash burn that can be expected from normal operations, somewhere around 57 million (= based on “2019 net result minus non-cash”) and the prognosis from management for a total cash burn of 68 million. This points to a major investment planned for 2020. When we take into consideration the collaboration revenue, (which judging from Q1 already is considerable), I believe Bcart has an investment planned of at least 15 million. I am really curious what that investment could be. My assumption was that it would be a further cash injection in the Wondfo partnership. I may be wrong. Do you have any idea what that cash investment could be?
Because of the above described discrepancy, pointing to the fact that a cash burn of 68 million is not structural, I believe the cash burn in the coming years may be lower than I initially anticipated. Add to this the comments from Verrelst in the VFB interview, and hopefully cash burn may not be too big an issue after all.
BL
DRTVR
0
quote:

Stockbrood schreef op 29 april 2020 20:47:

Ergens anders gevonden:

Voor de forumleden die gokken op een overname:
Als publiek bedrijf loop je natuurlijk in de kijker. Iedereen kent onze cijfers, sterktes en zwaktes. Een lage marktwaarde helpt natuurlijk niet. We lopen dus een iets groter risico. Maar ik heb bij mijn komst naar Biocartis duidelijk gezegd dat ik niet gekomen ben om te verkopen (in zijn carrière verkocht Verrelst al met succes verschillende bedrijven, red.)Ik geloof in wat we doen en dat we iets moois aan het realiseren zijn. Zeker door onze onderwaardering kan het een goed moment zijn om in Biocartis te investeren.
"
Fijn om horen, klare taal, gaat zich vroeg of laat wel vertalen in goede cijfers.
Stockbrood
0
quote:

brightlight schreef op 29 april 2020 20:59:

Stockbrood,
is het zinvol het hele artikel te posten? Zo ja, denk je dat dat mogelijk is?
BL
BL

Ik heb het artikel niet zelf kunnen lezen. Ik heb enkel de inhoud van mijn post elders gevonden. Het is dus geen conclusie van mezelf... Daarom de " "

Stock
Flatlander
0
DRTVR & BL

No Corona, I'm still kicking. I had some project deadlines that took up every spare minute the past couple days. There is a lot to respond to, I'll probably have to wait until tomorrow to complete responses.

With regard to the potential for BCART being acquired. I do not see it happening in the immediate future. Generally, the acquirer wants the acquisition to be accretive within 6 months or so of the acquisition. This is such a dynamic space, I think an acquirer will want to see significant evidence of market traction before a buyout. Currently, the shares are so widely disseminated that the small shareholders would actually have a say in approving any acquisition. The Baker Brothers were pretty much the controlling interest (about 49%) when GHDX was acquired by EXAS. This made the opinion of the small investors pretty moot.

From what I see of of Qiagen, most of their oncology offerings that compete with Idylla are IVD kits that are run on NGS, so I don't believe they have a competing sample to answer platform that is run in the POC environment. They will be a powerhouse with Fisher. As far as Cepheid, their oncology offerings looked like they were geared toward hematology blood based cancers (CML etc). Renate at one point said that some of Phillips patents protected the front end of the cartridge analysis (lysis processes etc). This hopefully protects the processes used in Idylla's cartridge analyses of solid tumors. Liquid biopsy in the POC may be more vulnerable to competition.

BL
The total operating expenses ballooning to 93 million in 2019, prompted me to quip that they likely kitchen sinked the year end, to pull expenses in to 2019 to set the stage for a better 2020. (little did they know a pandemic would hit in a couple months).

I think the infectious disease investments for COVID and septicyte rapid are likely paid for by partners or are coming out of the $24 mil EU line of credit from the EU in 2018. So I don't think the cash is destined for the infectious disease efforts. If Verrelst is successful in increasing the head count by 10% in the midst of the pandemic it would obviously increase cash burn.

A $15 mil investment infusion into a 50% joint venture for setting up a facility in Asia would make sense since they would have the costs for both the facilities and the manufacturing line ($30 mil total investment would seem to get things off the ground). Rarezot, would probably have an opinion this. China coming out of the pandemic is looking for products that have demand since supply chains with many western partners have been thoroughly disrupted. I'll give it some more thought and post more in the morning.

FL

brightlight
0
Stock,
bedankt. Heeft iemand anders het volledige VFB artikel? Wanneer is het verschenen?

FL
Thanks for the clarification on the take-over and competitive advantage questions. It is reassuring to hear there is no imminent threat for the moment.
The Asia joint venture seems plausible. Whatever it is, I expect an announcement of some kind concerning this or another investment later this year.
Concerning the 93 million kitchen sink: a break-up of the increase in total op. expenses gives:
6 m to cost of sales (staffing and fine tuning the 2nd line and the night shifts)
3 m to r&d
2.6 m to s&m
6.2 m to g&a
Strange, this disproportionate increase in general and administration. One would expect this to be far less, since this is all cost with no return. What am I missing here?
BL
brightlight
0
FL
I wouldn't entirely dismiss the take-over scenario because Bcart is the last small player in the space. If one of the big boys wants to venture in the POC CDX space, then Bcart is the only remaining option (unless they want to start from scratch). Bcart was already considered a take-over target by Berenberg back in 2017. But sure enough, there are no signs of a take-over yet.
BL
[verwijderd]
0
quote:

brightlight schreef op 30 april 2020 10:01:

FL
I wouldn't entirely dismiss the take-over scenario because Bcart is the last small player in the space. If one of the big boys wants to venture in the POC CDX space, then Bcart is the only remaining option (unless they want to start from scratch). Bcart was already considered a take-over target by Berenberg back in 2017. But sure enough, there are no signs of a take-over yet.
BL
BL

Stel dat BioCartis ten prooi valt van een overname. Wat zal er dan gebeuren? De overnemer bepaald een bedrag voor de overname van de aandelen. Krijg je dan aandelen van de overnemer in de plaats?

Hoe ziet zo een scenario er dan uit? Op zich voor wie laag ingekocht heeft kan dit dan positief uitdraaien? Of zie ik dat verkeerd.

groeten
Nestel
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